No, not dead yet...

[bodldops]

Just forgetting to update this thing...
Been a busy week, oh yes it has. Got a job review, even though when I was hired they said I wouldn't get one... evidently I'm an outstanding tech (WHOOPIEEEE!) and a wonderful person to work with... but I'm not eligible for a raise, since I'm a temp. Botheration.
Three midterms, which have so fare resulted with two B's (still got A's overall)... more botheration. I should be acing these classes. Ah well, the quarter's almost over (hooray!), and then I've got a week to de-stress.
I've actually started a half-decent original fic, which I am majorly proud of. I have a pretty good idea of where it's going, I just have to figure out how to get there without crashing somewhere along the way. Easier said than done, methinks.
*glowers at the PPC board* I didn't comment during the RW thing, and I wasn't going to comment during this... but I'm tired of being quiet. I won't post on the PPC board about this nonsense. When Jay and Acacia ran the board (and the PPC), most (99%) of the posts were fic- or Tolkien- related. now, it's rare to find a good story post. It seemse that entirely too many people are eager to flame anyone that even a marginal PPCer points out as a Suvian, as someone who flamed them, as... anything. There doesn't seem to be much waiting for proof, or even rational discussion... just a general grabbing of flamethrowers. I think that's very sad... I used to go to the PPC board for mature conversation and a bit of sanity in an insane arena. We used to call the Suvians and their packs of friends "Rabid poodles". Lately... _we've_ been the rabid poodles. I don't flame. If I really think that I have absolutely nothing nice to say to an author, I just report them (I always have at least something nice and/or helpful to say to suvians... they're just beginning writers, most of them) for whatever it is that got my goat. Is that really such a novel concept? Botheration. Now we have a new person to harrass and harry until they run off crying (which seems to be some people's aim in life). Why? They're just kids. Ignore them - that means no posts at all, not even ones talking about how much you wish they'd go away.

Okay, I'll shut up now.

*beams* I pilled a cat today in under two minutes! I rock so much...

Comments

[artemis85.livejournal.com]

Rabid Poodle! Like that crazy one from Men at Arms! Aiyee!

I'm glad I'm not a rabid poodle. O_o I don't want to be a rabid poodle, either.

In other words, I agree. :)

respectfully disagreeing...

[araeph.livejournal.com]

When Jay and Acacia ran the board (and the PPC), most (99%) of the posts were fic- or Tolkien- related. now, it's rare to find a good story post.

There were two goodfic plugs on the first posting page. I find that most of the board still does deal with Tolkien related things, even if it's swearing in Sindarin or writing the Silmarillion in verse.

It seemse that entirely too many people are eager to flame anyone that even a marginal PPCer points out as a Suvian, as someone who flamed them, as... anything. There doesn't seem to be much waiting for proof, or even rational discussion... just a general grabbing of flamethrowers.

As I see it, the proof is in the badfic itself. Most PPCers who plug badfic give some sort of description of what they found offensive, and the reason that there's little discussion is that it's usually quite obvious that the fic is bad. I honestly haven't seen a general grabbing of flamethrowers. People get upset at the fic, but when I look at the plugged badfics, I see very little flaming by the boarders. Almost all of it is either constructive criticism or non-flame critique of the story. Saying that a story is a pile of garbage and needs to be rewritten with certain changes isn't a flame.

Potcsues (approzimately): "I left a writing circle because too many of the members felt that you had to give positive and negative comments in equal parts. I'm sorry, but if a fic is 86% rubbish, my review is going to be 86% bad news."

I have flamed exactly once - when there was a Potc trollfic that was rated "G" and posted where young readers could see it, and yet contained the "f" word and explicit sex. That is reprehensible behaviour on the part of the author and should not go unrebuked.

I think that's very sad... I used to go to the PPC board for mature conversation and a bit of sanity in an insane arena.

That's why I still go on the board! GreyLadyBast just made a post saying how much she loved the board because we've discussed nearly every debatable issue--sex, drugs, religion, politics, and many more topics--virtually avoiding personal insults, and those that were insulting politely backed down when told off. I agree, especially considering what other message boards are like. I'm not saying that people never get insulted on the board, but it's kept to a minimum, and never goes unchallenged.

We used to call the Suvians and their packs of friends "Rabid poodles". Lately... _we've_ been the rabid poodles. I don't flame. If I really think that I have absolutely nothing nice to say to an author, I just report them (I always have at least something nice and/or helpful to say to suvians... they're just beginning writers, most of them) for whatever it is that got my goat.

Sometimes reporting isn't enough. It's one thing to hear an automated admin response from the ff.net bot, saying that your story was removed for plagiarism, and it's another to have a reviewer point out, intelligently and with a minimum of insults, why plagiarism is so disrespectful.

Is that really such a novel concept? Botheration. Now we have a new person to harrass and harry until they run off crying (which seems to be some people's aim in life). Why? They're just kids. Ignore them - that means no posts at all, not even ones talking about how much you wish they'd go away.

Lia hasn't run off crying--she's been given an official welcome on the board, and is currently participating in a greased-hobbit fight with Andy and Saphie. Anya and fondued jicama both apologized for excessive flaminess, and Lia, I believe, has apologized for the fact that she flamed back.

The board is my favorite place to hang out online, so I apologize if I sound miffed. This is just my perspective of the recent events. I wasn't around to witness Jay and Acacia's management, so I can't say how different it is now.

Re: respectfully disagreeing...

[artemis85.livejournal.com]

Bodldops is right though. Maybe you haven't been around long enough to realize it, but lately there is maybe thirty percent of the good-fic being posted as opposed to when I first joined. For that matter, posting of bad-fics has gone down, too...

That's why I still go on the board! GreyLadyBast just made a post saying how much she loved the board because we've discussed nearly every debatable issue--sex, drugs, religion, politics, and many more topics--virtually avoiding personal insults, and those that were insulting politely backed down when told off.

But that's the only reason you still come to the boards? So that you can talk about those things?

But that's not really why the PPC board exists. I'm sorry, it's nice that we can discuss political/religious issues on the board, but the board does not exist solely so that we can discuss topics that would leave other messageboards drowning in flames. At least, it wasn't intended to be.

Unfortunately, there have been calls to back down on such subjects, and they have been ignored. Entirely.

If you can’t respect others’ opinions or things get too heated, please try to keep political/theological arguments to a minimum. Hopefully, that won’t be a problem, though.

See what I mean? We have had problems with these discussions, though mainly they haven't been too bad. Yes, there have been people who have been insulted, and yes, it has gone unchallenged. You may not have seen it, but I can tell you that I have. Also...

If a political/theological and/or controversial subject starts out okay, but winds up heated, and starts going out of control, everyone should step back and calm down, and possibly abandon the discussion if it seems that it can’t be continued calmly and civilly.

There are some people who can't do this. Most can, yes, but some can't. It just gets back to the point...The board is not for the sake of discussing every topic that comes up in the news. It's about the PPC...good-fic, and bad-fic, and things Tolkien related. That's how it started out, and I would like to keep it that way. OT things are fine, but in moderation. More personal OTs, I think, should be kept to LJ. It's not that I don't care about what's happening in peoples' lives, it's just that I don't think that the PPC board is the place to take those issues.

Lia hasn't run off crying, no, but what about Red Wolf? You can't take one case and assume it applies for all of them. The truth is that I don't think that the RW thing was handled appropriately at all.

But that's in the past now. I'm hoping that everyone has learned something from all of that, so that we won't be having that kind of problem again.

I liked things better back when Jay was around. Like I've said before, I'm a nostalgic kind of person. The board has changed, whether for the better or worse I can't say.

That dosen't mean that I hate the board now. I still like it, I just have issues with a few people...But what's wrong with that? Isn't one of the main things about the PPC board that people with different opinions and beliefs can gather and discuss bad-fic, good-fic, and all things Tolkien? And most of all, PPC fics?

If it's not, I may really be in the wrong place.

Re: Bodldops is right though...

[araeph.livejournal.com]

But that's the only reason you still come to the boards? So that you can talk about those things?

I'm sorry; I should have been clearer. Thoughtful, polite yet honest discussions are only one of the many reasons that I come to the PPC message board. I was introduced to this board through Megan@Midnight's PotC PPC fic, and I quickly became immersed in the Original Series. PPCing is, and always will be, the primary reason that I frequent the board; the discussions are just a nice bonus.

Unfortunately, there have been calls to back down on such subjects, and they have been ignored. Entirely.

If they have been made, then they definitely have been ignored. I haven't seen anyone criticize the number of very OT posts on the message board, but perhaps, as you said, I haven't been around long enough.

I do agree that these days there are far fewer on topic posts than I would like. I think the PPC board should be just that--for PPCing or for topics closely related to PPCing. It's difficult, though...how can you propose cutting back on, say, birthday or "I need hugs!" posts (which have increased, I think, at a greater rate than the serious debates and which also take up a large amount of space) without sounding really mean?

It would be nice if people stuck more to PPCing. I won't dispute that. Still, that was not the major issue at hand, as I read Bodldop's post. What concerns me most is not that Bodldops is deprecating that aspect of the board, but rather that the PPC seems harsher, more flame-happy and impulsive than it was previously in Bodldops' view. Is it, really? Because in the five or so months I've been on the board, I haven't seen an increase in the grabbing of flamethrowers.

Lia hasn't run off crying, no, but what about Red Wolf? You can't take one case and assume it applies for all of them.

No, but I was addressing Bodldops statement of, "Now we have a new person to harrass and harry until they run off crying (which seems to be some people's aim in life." The answer is, no. And, more generally, it's "not always." Not all of the people who come to the board are welcome; not all of the initially controversial posters are shunned. And for the record, I think the accusation that anyone on the PPC message board has the singular agenda of harassing to the point of tears any poster, Suvian or otherwise, is really unfair.

The truth is that I don't think that the RW thing was handled appropriately at all.

How do you think it should have been handled? I feel bad that she got flamed, but she didn't belong on the board, and she wasn't respectful. She was annoying. She was childish. She spammed the board when repeatedly told to stop. She refused to correct her grammar and spelling when told to do so. And then, when she was well aware that she did not have our favor, she announced, "I think I'll write a PPC spin-off!" I don't blame the PPCers for thinking that she was a troll--there was no indication to the contrary. Vanessa, who had experiences with trolls destroying other boards, came out and said that RW showed many identifying characteristics of trollishness. I know that people overreacted, but I think it was out of protectiveness for the board, not out of meanness or spite.

The other thing is, she was too young to be on this board. If, as she claimed, she really was nine, what in the world was she doing on a PG-13 site? That's what the Board Constitution says is our basic guideline...and it's not just about language or adult references, but maturity level. I'd rather have her banished with a "You're being immature--get off this board!" than permitted to post, and post, and post, all the while not contributing a speck to what the PPC stands for.

Part Two of reply...

[araeph.livejournal.com]

Of course, the best alternative would probably have been to ignore her. I'll concede that. I started ignoring her when that was suggested, too. It's hard, though, when someone gets under your skin like that and is messing up a fun site that you frequent. Again, I'm not condoning the page-long threads that started from that, but I understand why it happened.

I did notice that, a few days after supposedly being banned, RW did make a brief appearance and we were promptly reminded to ignore her, which we did, except for a few curious boarders who hadn't been present when the incident had occurred. So, perhaps the PPC wasn't right in its first attempt to make her go away, but we learned from what had transpired previously and we took the appropriate measures.

Bottom line: I don't think that the majority of the PPC boarders deserves to be called "rabid poodles." At times we have lost our tempers, but we don't go and flame fics en masse*, and most of us try to offer constructive criticism before PPCing. (In fact, it's requisite in my department, unless someone else has offered concrit that has not been listened to.) And, on many occasions, we simply poke fun! For instance, I am rather partial to the "Let's fill in the story to go with the odd summary!" posts that go around - they're entertaining, they're not directly offensive, and they're not written out of bitterness.

That's what Jay and Acacia's work was like, wasn't it?

-Araeph, still waving the "Go PPC!" flag.

P.S. to Bodldops - I think that your message needs to be posted to the board, not just to your live journal. If there is a problem, all boarders should hear about it.

*=except when they're harmful trolls...the Lometir/Lomedil situation springs to mind.

Re: Part Two of reply...

[artemis85.livejournal.com]

When you ask about the flamethrowers, it depends. There are a few people who seem to like to flame. Of course, if they want to go flame, that's their own business, but reviewing with a flame and then citing the PPC as the instigator is unfair. This has happened, and it shouldn't. We're a diverse bunch, so if anyone decides to speak for all of us, they need to keep that in mind.

How did I think that the RW thing should have been handled? You hit on it yourself. She should have been completely ignored. Except for the PPCing bit, where someone should have stepped in and told her exactly what the problems were(which several people did do). Once she was being ignored, she went away. Problem solved.

I think setting an age limit for the boards wouldn't be an easy thing to do( as there are plenty of very intelligent kids out there). I agree that she didn't belong on the boards, but why she wasn't... that's beside the point.

Troll or not, the solution was the same. I don't have anything against people who did think that she was a troll, as she was very suspicious, but when people start breaking our own rules in response to a suspected troll...that's too much.

Yes, it is hard to ignore her at first, especially for some people, but since we're all mature people, shouldn't we be able to handle it?

That's what Bodldops was talking about when she said rabid poodles. That's about what happened with RW. I remember that I read several posts that were outright flames(and above a PG-13 rating, for that matter) before I stopped even keeping up with it. It bothered me a lot. It was that incident that brought on this image of 'flaming en masse' because that's what happened.

Yes, most people say that they're going to offer CC, and that's the good thing to do, but far too oftentimes CC is so snarky and resembles a flame more than anything. I actually don't think that people realize this, though.

This isn't a problem with everyone. I know that most people are quite helpful with their CC.

Basically, the RW thing on the board, along with a few other incidents is what brough this on, in addition to the general swamp of very OT topics.

And, on many occasions, we simply poke fun! For instance, I am rather partial to the "Let's fill in the story to go with the odd summary!" posts that go around - they're entertaining, they're not directly offensive, and they're not written out of bitterness.

That's what Jay and Acacia's work was like, wasn't it?

Those posts are fun, and have been going on for quite a while, and I'm having trouble seeing how they relate to this discussion, unless you're just pointing out the things that you like about the board that haven't changed.

Yes, that is what J&A's work was like. It's still up for everybody to read, and as I have said before, I'm a die-hard fan of theirs.

Yes, but that's getting off into an entire realm of discussion which is getting away from what we're talking about. Now that you've rephrased yourself, it sounds like you agree with our basic worries, we just differ some on opinions.

I do think that we can all get past this, and that the board isn't doomed, nor is it evil. I think we have a lot of newbie-enthusiasm, which can be a bit misdirected at times.

Also, the whole RW thing was just a fiasco, and I don't think anybody wants to repeat that(as hopefully it won't be). If they do, I suggest that we force them to watch the animated rendition of Lord of the Rings for 48 hours straight.